Yes, they are. I think there is having a nice powerful level and then there is the "my toes are shaking" level. I think it may be a mix of bad sound and stupid bands. Some bands think that the level of there guitar determins how good they are, but in reality, it is the great players that know the level of the whole is more important. Then there is your point about the quality of the loud music, but that is a different story.

I can't say, nor can any of us, that I haven't been too loud on stage before, but if the sound guy is good, he tells you to turn down and if the band is professional, you listen. I wish the focus on the sound in clubs was more on quality than on quickness. There is a middle ground there and great sound guys like Paul Dagnello, understand the whole package.

Ok, I'm done.

MT

I think about whenever I've gone to bigger shows at the Paradise/Avalon, etc... I've NEVER left feeling like the show was too loud. But I leave Ralph's & the Dog feeling that way all the time. I think when a band is mixed properly (and really has their shit together), a little extra volume is not a bad thing.

A band like Quintaine are loud as holy fuck, but no matter how loud they are, they sound GOOD. They sound FULL. Then I see a band like Bottlefight, who want to have that sound, but all they do is peg the guitar amp, and it sounds like total shit. I think if your instrument/amp sounds good to begin with, you can let the soundguy do his job.

As for the poll, I can't give a definite "yes" or "no" answer. Depends on the band, depends on the club.

I was insisting to Erick about four years ago that it was too loud in the Lucky Dog. He agreed, we went and got a decibel meter from Radio Shack.



It was scoffed at by the sound guys and used only once.

Lucky Dog isn't the only club doing this either, I don't want to single them out. Most of the rock clubs mix too loud.

Also by paying better attention to the stage baffling they could reduce the volume coming off the stage.

Lucky Dog and Ralph's are consistently, extremely loud clubs. Tammany is not so bad.

Ralph's can be simply unbearable at times.


Lucky Dog can also be unreal. It's a big reason why I often sit around the back of the bar.


I once saw Uncle Billy's Smokehouse at Lucky Dog. They not only were awful, they were the loudest fucking band I've ever heard in that place. UGGGGGG it was terrible! Just terrible.

Don't know about you, but I get real cranky when I have to repeat every fucking word in a 'conversation' at a club like that three or four times.



However, the word "loud" is also best employed carefully.


Last week I saw an IMAX film in Boston, Aliens of the Deep. They say the theater's sound system is 12,000 watts. I believe it. Great and powerful sound. And yes, loud. But it was not unbearable at all.

The loudspeakers were putting out huge bass and the dialogue was crystal clear, but the system wasn't straining at all. It was 'big' not just loud. There was no distortion of any kind. The high end was controlled and crystalline instead of brittle and harsh like the PAs at local clubs, especially Ralph's.

Local clubs do not provide that experience, with one exception that I can remember.

Bewkenheimer played a final show at Ralph's maybe one year ago. They brought many of their own high-quality amplifiers. They sounded enormous but not scathingly, painfully loud.

Contrast that with the recent Bees Knees show. Real bad. Real, real painful sound. I like that guy Steve but his system has no low end.

The Bees Knees are a roots rock band, last I checked. And a fine one at that.

Yet to my ears their show was mixed like a Sonny Sharrock/Lou Reed Metal Machine Music retrospective concert.


Saw a blues band at a fundraiser last night, held at Gilrein's (which is reopening this summer under new ownership. The room was perfectly preserved, by the way.)

They barely miked the drums and had a very modest PA set up overall. It was more than enough volume and you could hear the definition between the instruments and the vocals cut right through. When the guitarist wanted to get louder, he played harder -- that's why you buy tube amps, right?

It was a stark and telling contrast to many a Lucky Dog/Ralph's show I've seen.

did you happen to catch of the hour at the dog a few weeks ago? Put a keyboard on that board and it was a clusterfuck! Gatsby sounded good...which made me respect them that much more because the sound guy was doing them no favors.

sos though...put Paul behind that board and it sounds great.

Holy shit I agree with Mike. "Rock" clubs are all about loud music . Always have been. My opinion is that rock is loud and is supposed to be loud. If it ain't loud it ain't rock. If it doesn't offend some sort of sensibility in someone it is not rock. When you start trying to be all things to everyone you are no longer playing rock. I just finished reading Never Mind The Pollocks by the way so excuse my fuck you opinion about the rock.
Yes bands and soundguys need to be better and a bad band does not need to be turned up and neither does a bad mix. However, as Pez mentioned with Quintaine, some bands are just meant to be loud and that goes for a lot of things. I don't know about anyone else but I am going to a rock club to see music, not converse. If we wanted to do that we could go to Java Hut and talk over those people.

Quote:

duncan wrote:
I guess there is a distinction that should be made then between "good" loud and "bad" loud. "Good" loud isn't noticeable, it just sounds good. I am 100% in favor of Good Loud.

If you don't think there should be a distinction and "loud" is just a given that people need to accept, then I will remember to never open a club with you. ;-)

Empty clubs are empty for a reason. If you ask people why they don't go, you will find more often than not, people saying that it's too fucking loud.

You can sit back and say people don't understand how Rock is "supposed" to be all you like. You will have no trouble finding a seat.

I remember way back in my youth I went to see Live and Chucklehead at URI. It was in a theater with seats (bad place to put Chucklehead) and people were obviously getting down. Some girl was bullshit that people were standing and she couldn't see the band. It pissed me off because, well, that was a show and that is what it's like and while she had every right to be pissed she also had every right to not go to shows anymore. I think fishing is boring so I don't do it. It not up to the national fisheries association to make fishing more pleasant for me, not up to the national association of spinach eaters to make spinach taste better for me.
While I do agree there is good loud and bad loud I think that as a whole folks we are getting older. And simply there are gonna be people we consider peers who consider things too loud. The older we get these numbers are going to grow. If your average 18-22 year old thinks it's too loud then we've got problems.
What I am trying to say is that there are folks out there who think good loud is too loud too and they should not be catered too. There is Cafe Fantastique for them.

Typical club scenario. Bands are too loud for the cheap p.a. system. Result, muffled, distorted vocals and sounds horrible. Case #2, the club has a great p.a. but the soundman doesn't give a shit and just cranks up the mains no matter what type of music. Sounds like crap, now your ears are getting blown out. I know it is a thankless job but damn it is still a job. Make the band sound good and the audience will think they are in the best club in town.

I'll give you some examples. I've been to The Casbah (SD,CA) for many shows. Great local and national acts weekly. When it is a local act where the soundguy is not into it it, the sound is crap most of the time. I was there when John Vanderslice came to play. He brought his own soundguy along with some outboard gear. The sound levels were lower but everything was perfect in the mix. It was mindblowing how good the club could sound.

A scene that always happens at our local bar, The Bar Leucadian is your typical bar scene with owners who don't care about the music unless you play bad white boy blues or bullshit Calif wannabee reggae. First off there is no p.a. so you have to bring in your own. With the pay he gives to whoever is promoting the gig for the evening there is hardly any money to rent the p.a. Hence what usually gets brought in is something that is fine for a garage but definitely not for a bar with a capacity of about 200. Since bands make about $60.00/ea they don't feel too inclined to turn down their volumes. Of course you know what this does to the vocalist.He can't hear himself, he pushes and gets out of key, you can't understand a single word. In other words, another night of bad music.

Oh well, just decided to add to this rant and rave. It really made me think about stage volumes and what I can do to make it sound better to the audience. Turn down, turn down, turn down.

dougo

I brought up the topic because I talk to a lot of people (young and old) who complain it's too loud.

Personally I can deal with it. I don't think that I am a normal club going music fan though.

If clubs don't want to change and believe that the volume and quality of the clubs sound is not a factor in the success of the business, more power to them. Last time I checked though, the clubs in town are not exactly seething with life.

This thread and others serve a purpose. Musicians and clubs can be stubborn and ignore that or they can learn from it. If the Worcester music scene was really doing something great, I don't think this site would exist in the form that it does now.

No Ron, I just take things WAY TOO PERSONAL sometimes.
I feel like a dick for my post already.
Everyone here have made some great points to this.
I am in agreement to most.
But I feel we do try to contain the problem every night.
When asking Pete or Dan why it's so loud it's usually a guitarist with his/her amp pegged and even after explaining it to the offender and turning their gear down they still crank it back up and the rest of their band and the audience suffer with a loud, BAD sound for their set.

I think it's a good idea for me to post signs on the stage for bands stating "excessive stage volume will not be tolerated" and have the sound person help them to set their volume before they check.

Carry on...

E

I have spent more than half my life in clubs and only remember it being unbearably loud a few times..Fugazi at Zoots and My Bloody Valentine at Avcalon stand out. A few weeks back at Ralphs for Bees Knees, Huck, Thinner, The Curtain Society show I thought it was getting to the point where it was too loud during the TCS set. Not sure if it was me but that was the loudest I remember TCS to have ever been.

More often than not for me it's the quality of sound thats bad not the volume. Keep in mind, I have no idea what goes into making a band sound good or bad but I do know what I like and think I can tell when something doesn't sound right. Sticking with TCS, I have seen them what a hundred times? Ron sings backup in a lot of songs but I can't tell you how many times I have seen him move his mouth and not hear anything. Is that a soundguy issue? The PA? The band playing too loud so the soundguy can't do his job?

Gabe is right, We are getting older and maybe it's catching up to us. Rock clubs by nature should be loud, but they should sound good too.

Ok. I think that there is a point that is not being taken.

Clubs may be the same volume as they were. The volume and quality of the bands is the same as it was in 1992 as it was in 1982 and 1972.. fine. I agree with that for the most part.

The point is, the clubs are not full. The customers complain it's too loud and all anyone can say is "Rock & Roll" dude?????!!

That is silly.

Whether or not a club is louder than it was yesterday isn't really the issue is it? Why the clubs are empty is the issue and volume is one of the many things that keep coming up. This, along with too many bands, shitty bands and asshole doorstaff are the things I always hear from people.

By the logic of some, no matter what goes on at the Rock club as long as it is just like it was 20 years ago it's okay for today. 20 years ago is not a model anyone should base an entertainment business on in 2005.

here is what it sounds like:

person 1:"hey why don't you ever come out to see live music?"
person 2:"I like music but it is always really loud so I don't go"
person 1:"too bad for you that's the way it is, if you don't like it fuck you. I don't think anyone should change anything just to please customers"


Isn't it in a club's best interest to cater to what the customers want?

The Lucky Dog Music Hall. That's it's name. When I think of The Dog I think live rock music and when I think of live rock music I think of loud. If I were a guy looking to hook up with a girl, and knew nothing about the nightlife in Worcester, a place with "Music Hall" in the name that had a band caled Voodoo Screw Machine playing would not be first on my list of places to go. I dont think of going to the Dog for a beer or two, I go there to see music. If i want to hang out and drink/socalize, I go to Vincents or Ralphs. Even if you cut the volume in half I still wouldn't think of the Dog as a hangout kind of place. It's a rock club to me.

Enough about the Dog. I think I tend to go to more "clubs" in Worcester than most people on this site(I could be wrong) so let me spout about them for a bit.

The Irish Times is usually packed when they have a band downstairs. I have been there a few times recently when they have had music on the weekends. very little cheap parking when there in a Palladium/centrum event, cover averages $5-$10.00, easily louder than the Dog, my estimate 150+ people just downstairs and these were the "lets go out and try to get laid" guys and neither they, nor the drunk girls seemed to care about volume.

Shabooms has really loud crappy music in their main room and there is no shortage of people trying to hook up while dancing poorly. In fact, go by there at midnight and look at the line of people outside waiting to get in.

The Plantation club has its area off to the side where you can chat if you want to, The last show I saw there was 9Teen and they tend to play to an older croud. The volume was fine, I could carry on a conversation while they were playing...more than you could do at Shabooms where again, many people go to drink and hook up.

I saw OSB at Tammany recently and thought it was a great mix and not once did i think it was too loud, however the Arthur Dent show was loud.


I think all of these clubs have a place in Worcester. The Lucky Dog is a live music venue that in my opinion, will thrive if it continues to put quality live music on it's stage no matter what the volume is.

I will contine to go to Vincents if I just want to hang out.

Quote:

duncan wrote:


I believe that it is not the volume of the sound but the quality of the sound.

According to you Barry, Gabe and Erick they are wrong and just need to suck it up.

As I said earlier, I agree that the quality of the sound in the live venues in Worcester is at times poor. I also said I don't know enough about sound to tell you why it's that way or how to fix it.

Live music is too loud? Too loud for what? Talking on a cell phone? Chatting up a cute girl? Playing Chess? "Too loud" is too general.If you asked "is the quality of sound poor in the live music clubs in Worcester" there would be no debate here.

Duncan, you said "Isn't it in a club's best interest to cater to what the customers want?" I want a lower cover and cheaper drinks and think most people would. Make sure the club owners take care of that for me will you?

I assure you that if the upcoming Huck/Gutta show was free with $2.00 Newcastles(Or Bud if you must), regardless of the volume the place would be packed.

As for the "General concensus of people", Since this isn't about the Lucky Dog but about Live music in general, The next time Probable Cause is at the Irish Times, come with me and you will see 200 people there all listening to poorly mixed very loud music while they drink mass quantities of beer and try to get laid. What are they doing wrong?

I heading to Elm park now to toss the frisbee with my girlfriend. If you want to discuss this further, look for me there.

Quote:

Duncan, you said "Isn't it in a club's best interest to cater to what the customers want?" I want a lower cover and cheaper drinks and think most people would. Make sure the club owners take care of that for me will you?

I know you think you are being coy here Barry, but if I were a club owner and my business was failing, and there was a consensus that something I had control over was hurting my business then yes I would take care of that for you. If I had a club and people weren't going to it because the majority of people felt that the cover was too high or the drinks to costly, I would take care of that. I am sure that McDonald's would happily charge you $25.99 for a Big Mac but the market will not let them.

Here is an example if you still don't get what I am saying.

If Silvertone Cafe was not doing good business and you heard many times that your eggs were too expensive would you?

A.Keep your prices as they are and ignore this even though your business suffers directly from it.

or

B. Lower the damn price of your eggs.

Quote:

I assure you that if the upcoming Huck/Gutta show was free with $2.00 Newcastles(Or Bud if you must), regardless of the volume the place would be packed.

So are you saying the cover and beer prices are the problem? Fine, you have added to the list of problems and ignored the topic at hand. Sure there are OTHER problems. I am suggesting that the sound is just one of them. No redirection here Barry, stick to the topic.

Quote:

As for the "General concensus of people", Since this isn't about the Lucky Dog but about Live music in general, The next time Probable Cause is at the Irish Times, come with me and you will see 200 people there all listening to poorly mixed very loud music while they drink mass quantities of beer and try to get laid. What are they doing wrong?

Again Barry, this is not the norm, this is an exception.

Quote:

I heading to Elm park now to toss the frisbee with my girlfriend. If you want to discuss this further, look for me there.

No, I am having Easter dinner and marveling at your stubbornness and general bad business mentality, in Leicester.

Barry I think the pimento fell out of your olive.

Quote:

gabefuckingrollins wrote:
nothing

I'm sorry I disturbed your sensitive sensibilities by actually calling you on something you said. How dare I.

You guys stink. I'm going back to reading my sign language book.

I am just posing the question.

I hear from a LOT of people that clubs are too loud. Interpret it however you want to.

I don't own a club, if I did; I know how I would interpret it.

I don't think it is THE major factor in the death of live music but I do think it is worthy of a discussion.

If you read the thread it is clear that nobody is saying that loud music is the 100% reason the clubs are less than full. Get that notion out of your head. The question is are the clubs to fucking loud?

I sense a challenge in your post. I am not suggesting that the poll is the consensus I am speaking of. I don't think that the people that should be going to clubs are on stupid message forums discussing this shit.

I will begin an informal survey starting now and I will get back to you with the cold hard facts you seem to require for this point to be made.

edit: I took out the blasphemy.

I agree and disagree with almost every post on this thread. Some things make sense and some just baffle me.
First off coming from both sides of the isle I can say yes sometimes things are definitely too loud in clubs. The first sign of that is if you have a band playing through a PA the size of the Lucky Dog

Like I said in my first response... Go to a bigger show/club, and the sound will be really fucking loud, but it ain't painful. If it's well balanced, you probably won't leave feeling like it was too loud, even if it was.

Make sure your stage volume isn't out of hand, and trust that the soundguy knows what the fuck he's doing. Sometimes (okay, PLENTY of times) they DON'T know from what, but you don't have to add to the problem by being a douche.

*Edited to say... Clubs oughta spend the money to hire the best soundguys they can. If more musicians felt like they could always trust what the soundguy tells them, they would listen much more often. Case in point: We played at Schuba's, in Chicago, and before soundcheck the soundguy was checking the PA w/ "pink noise" and a decibel meter. We took one look at the guy prepping the room, and said "We're gonna do whatever this guy tells us, because it's obvious he KNOWS this room, knows the equipment, and knows what the fuck he's doing."

Quote:

Keith wrote:It's too loud when you order a Bass and you get a Pabst. :)

This has actually happened to me, more than once. Absolutely a good gauge.

Quote:

heeze45 wrote:
Listen:

Are rock clubs too loud?

Fuck, yes.

Would clubs attract more people if they weren't?

I don't think so.

Why not?

Video on demand, cheap DVD's, broadband, downloading, no smoking, dui's, the current monopoly of radio by conglomerates, the fact that some bands suck, draconian capital gains tax laws, reality t.v., the fall of the nation state ...

In other words, clubs will have to re-invent themselves along the lines of the options television, radio, webcasting and music retailing are exploring. Until they do, symptoms like loud music, excessive cover or evil doormen will be ogres, not reasons

I think you're right. Which is why this reaction that people have regarding volume of "hey many it's a rock club, deal with it" is inappropriate. Clubs in general are stuck in a business model that doesn't work.

In regards to whether or not clubs would attract more people if ogres weren't at the door of the deafening club;

The point is not to attract more people but to retain the people that you still have while re-inventing to attract new people. There are nights that music clubs are packed with people but they are fewer and farther between. Retention should be a priority for these clubs. They should be doing everything they possibly can to make sure that the people who still come out to the club come back. How many times can you have a bad time at a club before you start watching movies OnDemand instead?

Quote:

CrutchingTiger wrote:
I saw The Bees Knees last month and I couldn't hear them over John Donovan's bright orange turtle neck.

Funny, I thought I was the only one...

Anywho, in my excersion to the Lucky Dog last night terrible_buddhist and I both thought it was a good bit quieter in the club last night, especially since the Brainless Wonders were on stage. So he asked Godin what was up and he directed us to the signs on stage and by the sound board that say-

"Excessive stage volume will not be tolerated and will lead to a terrible, short set".

I think the mixes were better last night than they have been in a while and my ears were not as tired as they usually are.

While it may not have been ear-splittingly loud last night, I have to say that the music between the bands was loud enough for Rob Ledoux to ask me "why does the music have to be so loud between bands?"

I said, "what? I can't hear you."

The bands were a bit more under control last night, but I also DIDN'T hear certain things, like terrible_beddhist's, or John D's vocals. Apparently when the light is burnt out on that side of the stage, you're not only invisible, you're inaudible.

And the Brainless Wonders were awesome.

Roger

Quote:

terrible_buddhist wrote:
I will not ever understand though how a sound guy can be such a cocksucker. Ok there it is...I am sure if Dan ever does sound for us he will fuck us up beyond any recognition...but really, how would that be any different?

A lack of vocals on one side...not giving John D. a little more guitar after he asked for it...and then giving me this 'fuck off you peon' look when I asked him if he could goose up johns guitar a bit as it was being drowned out by Robs. I don't get it. Why do that job if you don't care how it sounds?

Apparently I transgressed the unwritten law and didn't ask properly. I first tried to wave at him (if I can get the sound man's attention I usually just point to the guitar and then to the monitor - it has always worked before) but he was just staring at the floor, and when I tried to get his attention I blanked and forgot his name and called him "Sound Man" or "Sound Guy". Apparently he didn't like that, or he thought I was just being a jerk (and everybody in Worcester knows what a gigantic asshole I am), because that was pretty much it for my vocals and guitar in the mains and monitors.

Thank you to lusting kay, Steve from Bottlefight and a couple others for requesting that he turn it up a bit, because Keith's little 18 watter really does sound fantastic.

Up to that point I thought the sound had been very good, with the vocals above the mix and the volume "good loud", so sorry to all if my inexcusably bad stage manners ruined the sound for the rest of the bands.

So a great system and signs are all fine and well, but if the driver's asleep at the wheel (or just doesn't care), the bus is definitely going off the road.

Re: Paulnello's post (since I screwed up the quote)

All excellent points by one of the best sound guys I have ever had the pleasure to know and work with.

But you forgot to add "rewire the entire system" and "survive exploding dimmer packs" to your resume.

And his point about the band's responsibility is dead on too. Sometimes a band and/or singer just sounds bad.

Quote:

Yetitibbs wrote:
Quote:

CrutchingTiger wrote:
I saw The Bees Knees last month and I couldn't hear them over John Donovan's bright orange turtle neck.

Funny, I thought I was the only one...

You guys obviously don't know what you're talking about.
That shirt was only a mock turtleneck and it was red.

But it was good loud.

Quote:

duncan wrote:
It's nice to hear they put that sign up, it shows that the club is considering how things sound.

Regarding soundguys in general, it seems that many of them totally apathetic. The best ones really enjoy mixing live sound and it usually shows.

I was telling someone recently about the guy that used to mix at Bill's Bar. The first time we played there with him mixing, he asked a ton of questions about the band, got to know the set up and the sound we were shooting for. He mixed us, did a decent job and was affable. What really made him unique was the next time we played. We arrived, he said something like, 'hey Curtain Society, are you guys still a three piece, two vocals up front and a sampler? 4 piece kit right?'

He had a notebook with an input list of our setup!!!

incredible

We expect our plumbers, our teachers, our retail employees, our bartenders, our grocers, our jounalists, our carpenters, our doctors, our registry of motor vehicle employees and our candlestick makers to be professional. Why in the world do we tolerate soundmen who aren't?

Band guys: Lift up your voices!

Patrons: Complain to the management if you can't hear your best friend's potential new boyfriend's background vocals. You pay their wages!

Make it known to the management that muddy, over-amplified mixes are not acceptable.

Some of these guys think they know sound better than anyone else in the club. Make them prove it.

Quote:

Paulnello wrote:
Some Times it isn't the soundguys fault for this, sometimes people don't know how to sing. Sometimes bad sound can be blamed on a band. You can only fix something so much

Way to pass the buck, Paul. Now do your effing job, and fix my bass playing.