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Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many watts are needed based on room size?

Ernie's picture

I am just starting to learn about this stuff so please forgive my newbie question...

I've been looking at amps and powered mixers online, trying to figure out how many watts would be needed / suggested to play smaller places like Vincent's, The Shiproom, Blue Plate Lounge, Beatniks, etc, all the way up to larger clubs. This would be for a rock band with drums, so the PA would be for vocals w/ mic'd guitars (I'm assuming the drums and bass would not need to be mic'd..)

What do you use? How many watts would you suggest is needed based on the size of the venue?

The background here is during practice I am doing vocals through a mackie mixer into a guitar amp. I'd like to invest in a PA for the practice room that can also be used to play out in places like the ones mentioned above when (if?) that day ever arrives.. :-)

Thanks!

Matt's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

A couple of Carvin 15" powered speakers can handle a pretty big room and will be a perfect complement to your Mackie. They are about 350 watts each. I've filled outdoor venues, Beatnik's, Nick's, and tons of other indoor joints with them.

They run about $400 each.

duncan's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

If you can spring for stands, powered speakers like the ones Matt mentioned or the Mackie powered speakers will sound great. I would also recommend a small powered speaker for a monitor. Having a good monitor means you wont need so much volume coming from the front to hear yourself and give you a better (quieter) mix.

A little reverb can go a long way in a small room too. Consider a mixer with some built in effects.

Matt's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

I figured his Mackie (if it's recent) would have a graphic EQ and FX. I agree for sure on the stands. Placement is key. Ditto on monitors. Sometimes we put one of the Carvins on the floor as foldbacks. They're wedged for easy adaptability. You could also buy a 12" or 10" for full-time monitor use.

I love all Mackie products, but mentioned the Carvins because I have worked a pair really hard for several years (several hundred gigs and events) without incident (except a recently blown tweeter in one), and they cost about $300 less each than the Mackies. They're surprisingly light, too.

Jim's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Carvins are also American made, and the most recent generation (mine is about six months old) of them are incredibly light.


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Ernie's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Thanks for the advice everyone!! It is very much appreciated!

The mixer I have is a Mackie 1202 VLZ. It has 3 band EQ on each input channel but no built in effects.

Paulnello's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

How many piece band is this? What is the instrumentation? How many vocals? Type of music? Do you already have mics etc or do you need them too?

I guess the biggest question is what is the top end of the budget?


...

Ernie's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

It is a 4 piece rock band: Drums, bass, 2 electric guitar players, 2 vocals, and occasional harmonica.

Yup we are set up with everybody's mics, and I have the Mackie mixer, so it's seems like powered speakers might be the way to go.. maybe an effect unit for reverb, etc could be added later down the road.. Gear. It never ends.

My budget is $0.00. I'm trying to understand how best to use the gear I have, figure out what I need and then start saving those pennies! Like I said right now the vocals are through an extra guitar amp that we have, so anything we get would be a step up I think :-J

Any additional thoughts are very much appreciated!

Matt's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Behringer makes some really cheap powered speakers. I don't know how reliable they are, or how they sound, though.

Paulnello's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

What I would suggest is along the lines of what Matt and Duncan said. Grab a couple powered speakers and put them up on stands. Maybe get a third so you at least have one monitor on stage. If you have a really tight budget and don’t know how often you are going to use it etc go for the behringer ones. They sound pretty good for the money. If you find more and more you need a bigger PA or you are playing more then invest in a better front but still use the behringers for monitors. Kind of build as you go like you said. This will make your practice setup way better from the start though. You could get into 3 speakers and some stands for around 800 (or less used), a little more if you up the quality and get some Carvins or Mackies.

The one thing I would suggest is only putting vocals through if at all possible playing with a full band. Use stage volume to dictate the mix and work on positioning of guitar amps on stage to help both to hear them and not blow out the room. The less stuff you put through those mains the better the vocals are going to shine through. This set up should be plenty for most smaller rooms (like the Ship room) in town. For bigger rooms I would almost suggest hiring someone to bring in a system with a little more until you build up a PA.

Ernie's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Thought I'd come back to this thread and fill you in on what happened. I really appreciate all the input!!

A month or two back I ended up getting a pair of Mackie Thump TH-15A powered speakers and some stands.

http://www.mackie.com/products/th-15a/

The whole rig set me back $700. Before I found these I was looking at used powered speakers. I found a lot of JBL EONs that looked like they fell out of the back of a truck and rolled down a hill for the same price or more than the new Mackies..

The Mackie Thump's don't have a lot of input options, XLR only, but they sound great and have some nice EQ. They are super light too. Plus, the name is cool, 'THUMP', hah. Anyway, time will tell, but so far they have been great. Perfect for what we needed. Been using them for practice and also have used one of them as a monitor for a show. We'll be using them as mains at the Vernon in the near future.. Thanks again for the advice!

Matt's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Sounds like a good price. Mackie makes great stuff.

I still use a Mackie 1604 (not VLZ) that I've had since the late-90s, and have used at about a thousand gigs. It looks like hell, but has not given me a problem once, despite it being dropped, kept in dank basements, having beer and people spilled on it, etc.

tintern's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Those look like they should be able to get vocals above a drum kit nicely. Just get an old lexicon, digitech, etc.. reverb rack effects unit. Should be able to find one used for under $100 at this point.

Curious though as to why you mentioned mic'ing the guitars - doesn't make much sense to me given the size of the venues you listed.

Ernie's picture

Re:

tintern wrote:

Curious though as to why you mentioned mic'ing the guitars - doesn't make much sense to me given the size of the venues you listed.

Well, mainly because I am a noob and I'm learning all this as I go.. haha

I don't have a big head/cab amp setup. I have a solid-state combo amp. I had just assumed with my unimpressive amp that it would need to be mic'ed in order for it to be loud enough in live settings. I've only recently learned that this is not the case, (though I still feel a bit insecure when I see guys rolling in big cabs..)

One thing I need to try is to get the guitar amp up off the floor and see if it will help with the sound... elevate, tilt or just leave it on the floor.. Any thoughts? Thanks!

tintern's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Ah ok, makes sense now. I know any 1x12" tube amp is going to be loud enough unless you're doing metal or something. Dunno if a 1x12" solid state combo is quite loud enough but definitely a 2x12" would be. You'd probably be better off though getting an extension cab than running your amp mic'ed through the PA. It'll sound a lot more natural and the vocals won't have to fight for volume.

I would definitely recommend getting one of those amp stands or leaning it back against something. Personally, I don't like putting a combo amp up on something as I feel like then it's BLASTING me in the face. With the tilt method I also think it helps disperse the sound a lot better so you're not blasting it at the 5-10 people in front of the amp in the audience.

As for the size of your amp (lol, is this really being discussed!?) again it all depends. More speakers definitely mean more sound coming out but a lot of it is in the amp wattage. I can play pretty much any show with my 1x12 Fender Deluxe that's only 45 watts or so. You don't even really need 45, 30 watts of tube power like some of those olded Crates and Peaveys are just fine for your average rock band. That said, I do like bringing my Sovtek half stack on stage even though it's a pain in the a$$ :-)

Ernie's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Thanks that is a good idea about the extension cab.. (though I'd prob be better off in the long run investing in a tube amp.. ) I like the tilt idea as well, I know exactly what you are saying about getting blasted in the face. Not enjoyable.

The amp I use is an old Crate G-212. It has 2 12" speakers. It's not anywhere near as loud as a tube, for sure. My amp at 3/4 volume is equal to my friend's fender hot rod on like 3. But at the same time, when my friend really cranks his fender it's just way too loud anyway so he never actually uses all that juice that he has..

I really appreciate all the feedback!!

Matt's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Wattage ratings differ for tube and solid state amps, so that tubes are way louder for relative wattage.

As for wattage itself, you need something like ten times the power to double your volume, so 50 or 100 watts, for example, isn't really a matter of volume, but of clean overhead power and "how" you want the amp to sound.

If it has master volume, then the point is probably moot. Plus, many modern amps have pentode and triode modes and full and half power modes, making other aspects moot, too.

tintern's picture

Re: Looking for thoughts and opinions on PAs.. how many ...

Yeah you should be fine with both those guitar amps for playing live, unless your drummer likes to apeshit on the crash cymbals or something.

And yeah, I'd suggest getting a tube amp for the long run too :-)